Ep13 Branden Singletary - The Art of Creative Collaboration: How a Philosopher and Artist Designed a Transformative Oracle Deck

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  0:00  
That was very much a symbolic of working with the sort of unconscious or collective unconscious, using the images and working in relationship, and where we're both trying to capture these concepts and these images and these I mean experiences really welcome to psychedelic source where wisdom meets practice in the evolving landscape of psychedelic medicine. I'm your host, Dr Sandra Dreisbach, and I'm here to help you navigate the complex intersection of ethics, business and personal growth in a psychedelic space. Whether you're a practitioner, therapist, entrepreneur, or simply curious about this transformative field, you've found your source for authentic dialog, practical resources and community connection in each episode, we'll dive deep into the stories, strategies and ethical considerations that matter most to our growing ecosystem. Let's tap in to our inner source of wisdom and explore what it means to build a sustainable and ethical psychedelic future together.

VO  1:06  
The information shared on this podcast, our website and other platforms may be triggering for some viewers and readers and is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. It is not a substitute for professional medical, legal or therapeutic advice. While we explore topics related to altered states of consciousness. We do not endorse or encourage illegal activities or substance use. Always research your local laws and consult qualified professionals for guidance. The content provided is as is, and we are not liable for any actions taken based on the information shared. Stay supported and informed. Act responsibly and enjoy the podcast

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:37  
artists are so important to expressing and understanding our unconscious, our creative expression, and connecting to, you know, our higher selves, all aspects and the psychedelic source, you could even argue, right? And so in this episode, I'm very grateful to share with you artist Brandon Singletary and my work with him and but I really want to highlight him as an artist, but I try and aim to be transparent about my work. And Brandon and I worked on a special project called the thirst this, which is an Oracle deck designed to help support people through transformative experiences that could include psychedelic journeys, but outside of it, and I really wanted to make sure we took some time together, Brandon and I to highlight him as an artist, to talk about our experience together and to share that all with you. So that said, I hope you enjoy learning about Brandon. Brandon is an artist, of course, compelled to create worlds that forge a connection between the cosmos and human cognition. To achieve this, his work concentrates on psychology, philosophy and natural sciences into a framework of patterns mapping different world views, esthetic preferences, cognitive styles and ways of creation. So you can see why he might be the perfect fit to work with on this particular more psychedelic or transformative Oracle deck project. So that said, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Well, Hi Brandon. It is so great to see you again, and so wonderful to have you on the podcast and also in the in conversation, to talk about you and your work, but also a bit about our project that we worked on together, the the theorists, if I ever decide what how to pronounce it properly,

Unknown Speaker  3:35  
the thirst is something like me, something

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  3:38  
like that, but, but Maybe you could tell people a little bit about yourself and and yourself as an artist.

Branden Singletary  3:46  
Sure, I'm Branden Singletary. I'm from Birmingham, Alabama, and I my work primarily revolves around connecting human cognition to Well, I guess, in a sense, the universe in in a natural science sort of way, seeing how the different patterns in human cognition overlap with the patterns that are found all across nature, and the different ways of me going about that tends to vary in um.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  4:23  
Well, a little bit more about that. Like, what does that really mean to connect nature to the cognition of the universe, is that we said, or to global concepts? So could you explain a little bit more about that? Sure,

Branden Singletary  4:35  
it's um, just because my work seems to revolve around how things move primarily, and nothing else. Really. It's noticing how,

Unknown Speaker  4:50  
how

Branden Singletary  4:52  
the different patterns and way things move. And it's like there, there are certain, you know, structures in nature that. Looks similar to how a brain looks, and things similar that. And you know, if I surmise that many things tend to move in more or less the same ways or in similar ways, and I don't know it's just an interesting fascination that I had

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  5:16  
well, and one of the things that we bonded around in the very beginning of working together. And maybe I should say, like, the way we met was even kind of entertaining to me, because, like, I don't meet many artists via LinkedIn, maybe just, I mean, maybe I need more artist friends on LinkedIn. I mean, that's more about me than but, but you outreach to me on on LinkedIn, and and I started looking at your artwork, which, first of all, obviously I was impressed by but then I was looking at some of your descriptions of other work, and you mentioned one of your favorite works was the Tractatus by Wittgenstein, which I guess still makes me laugh when I'm wanting to talk about that. Could you say a little bit more about, like, what are some of like, the inspirations? Or, like, Why? Why like? Why philosophy like? And obviously I have an MA pink new philosophy, so I'm totally biased, and I have spent some time or pain or suffering, whichever way you want to think about it, with the Tractatus. Could you share a little bit more about like, you know, what, what? What other things inspire you? Like, I get some of the pieces about having that connection of movement and the universe and nature and seeing the similar patterns, but, but there's also really a philosophy and like and sort of symbolism and meaning making that you do in your work as well.

Branden Singletary  6:33  
Yeah, so with the Tractatus, it was discovering whiskey shines, I guess biography. While I was working on my book, which took on a very similar form to track cut us, it was it came at pretty much the exact time that it needed to come in, I was like pondering very much the beginnings of the work, which was, you know, all that

Speaker 1  7:01  
metaphysics, yeah. And

Branden Singletary  7:05  
the first time I landed on his biography, I was like, this is a bunch of logic stuff. I don't really and then I came back the second time I was like, Now wait a second, this is actually really interesting. Let's see what he has to say. The world is language. I'm writing a book this world. It's kind of like just sort of, it's a world of its own, right. This is made out of language. Interesting. I'm going to see what more there is here. I didn't necessarily read everything, but just kind of digested the words like he's seeing the exact same things. And I'm thinking, that's crazy. It already exists. I need to do it better. And that's, that's that's kind of how that came about.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  7:44  
Really do create a world, right? Like, as I'm interrupting, but like, you know, you really do create a world. And I looked at part of your, your your project, your one of your art projects that you were sharing with me, and the and sort of the the world that you create. And would you say that that's that it's creating a world of a language and relationship

Branden Singletary  8:07  
in a way, yeah, creating a world in a sense that is legitimately and maybe even literally made out of language and relaying it to the natural world that we inhabit. Yeah, it's like, while I was making it, I was thinking, well, maybe the world is, in a way, some sort of spoken word of sorts, or a story of some kind, in that sort of sense, pretty interesting. But yep, that's kind of where I was at when I was making that one.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  8:39  
Now. Now, what would you say is, is most of your work these days? I mean, obviously not including my project, because, like, I know it's kind of a different project, but, but how would you describe most of your artwork these days?

Branden Singletary  8:51  
These days? I mean, it's still more or less the same, trying to, well, I guess closer to refining the core ideas, because I've gone through many different interests, I suppose, and it is in the past, it was about psychology and mapping out the people's natural inclinations and patterns and all of that. Now it's taken a back seat, or at least I was taking a back seat, and now it's about just getting the philosophy right, making it feel less valuable, less flimsy, interchangeable. Because in the past, it was very vague, I suppose, but

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  9:34  
so was it more conceptual in terms of people's psychology and the artwork,

Branden Singletary  9:42  
in a way, yeah, I would say a little bit more conceptual. I did, like try to map out some sort of a typology system of sorts, and again, that kind of disintegrated it fully on itself. But yeah, I would maybe what I would like to have that come back. Around because it was, it was a fun system, but I don't know, we'll see what happens there.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  10:06  
Well, I mean, I mean, regardless of whether you say it was flimsy or not, I love that that was part of the backdrop of your your art and your relationship in the world, thing that you were doing in your artwork because, and even the focus on psychology or the connection with nature or with movement and And these weren't things I fully didn't understand. I would have to say, when I was first really exploring your artwork, it was just that, you know, I just really felt, you know, your artwork really does have an energy to it. It really is expressive. And there's a lot more depth to the work, not just in terms of the images themselves, but there is a sense of deeper meaning, even in the simplest of images, which is just really, you know, I mean, at least for me, I mean really phenomenal to get that conveyed, like the sense of a world, or a sense of, even if it's something that's a new object, or something like that, there is a sense of you really are experiencing it in a sort of reality, even if it's a reality of its own. I mean, you don't have to agree or disagree, but I'm just talking about my experience, and just experience. So like, the fact that this was part of the background, like, in some ways, for me, at least confirms, like, my experience, right? And, and, and, for what's worth, people who end up listening to this like I wasn't, you know, when the the thirst this project started, I'd already created different terms, concepts and and it created basic images that I had hand drawn when i i first came up with the different concept around trying to find A more symbolic way, imagery way, plus some basic words to help connect people to the experience of doing Shadow Work, Journey work, the healing experience. You know, hints of the hero's journey, but as well as like metaphors that you get in the psychedelic space or transformational space in general, and and when, when you came across my path, and I started seeing your work, and I saw the alignment we had about philosophy and then pieces about the psychology, let alone just resonating with your artwork, I'm like, Well, I wonder if Brandon would be open to working on this project. Well, what? What did you think when, when I first talked to you about the ideas of the project, like, What? What? Because you've never, and just for the right, like, you've never worked on any decks before. And for the record, I hadn't either. But in terms of like, it wasn't like you were like an oracle or taro deck artist, and this is something you were looking to do, or trying to find a project or or that I'd found you amongst people were already doing these sort of things. We we kind of were led to one another. And I'm just like, and I even entertain the idea of like, well, maybe I should work on the artwork more myself, but then it was becoming a barrier, and I just wanted these things to exist in the world. But, but what were your impressions on the other side? Yeah,

Branden Singletary  13:37  
when you first though mentioned the project assessors, very intrigued. And, I mean, I guess there's not much more to say beyond I was intrigued. The concept of making cards was something that, well, I made cards before, just not Tarot or oracle cards. And it was like, Yeah, you know what? Sure. Let's see where this goes. I am, especially if it's just going to be, you know, basically taking a bunch of different words and turning them into images, which is ordinarily what I already did anyway. It's like, Yeah, this is going to be interesting. Let's see what happens.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  14:19  
Right, right? And, and I think we both had that. It's like, well, let's see, you know, let's, let's try this, right? And, and, and we didn't, and the deck didn't have a name to begin with. It didn't happen to all the images were created, which is an interesting thing. Well, I mean everything except for the last images. I suppose that once the name was figured out, then there were images for that. But, and we started, the very first image I believe you started working on, was trust. Yes, I can't remember why we picked trust. Maybe it just seemed like it was. I honestly can't remember, but, but, but also, I also. Appreciate the living metaphor that that we were building trust with one another and trying, yeah, so why don't you talk about your process? Like, when you have like, you know, you have like, an image that I've sketched out, we've had a conversation about, you know, what I'm trying to get at, and then you have the word right, trust what? What was your process like from the very beginning?

Branden Singletary  15:32  
Well, I would describe my process as kind of, well, maybe, maybe boring to re to be explained. But it's like, well, when we whenever we would talk about the words in our in our calls, I would be like, for like, cobbling together the image in my mind as you were talking about it. And it's by the end of the conversation I either had it, or is, like, half formed. And then the ones that were half formed were just sort of, I just let them sit in the back of my mind for a little bit. And that's and the ones that were fully formed, I pretty much just immediately started, you know, working on when the calls, when it was done. And, yeah, that there wasn't much. There's not much more to recount. There

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  16:20  
no mention, because, like, some, some of the images were pretty much like a fully formed concept, and then there were some that really weren't, I think, trust and the original only had, I think the hands, and I think it had the the person and a crumbly something. But, like, I don't think it didn't really have, I don't think it looked I'd have to go look at my own drawing. Maybe it'd be worth pulling out some of the cards that I have. Maybe I will before, before we're gone, but, um, uh, but, uh, but that, that one was, like, it had a it had a person that was like, falling ish, and then it had hands that were kind of catching it. But the part of the idea was that they, I was like, okay, but they can't see. They don't know that the hands are there. Like, they gotta have because, like, it's gotta be kind of, like that trustful experience. I remember talking about it, but, but, but that has to be really clear that what they're standing on is not stable and is falling apart, right, right?

Branden Singletary  17:23  
There are very tiny tweaks throughout the a number of the images, yeah, and yeah, I don't know, those things I can't imagine, had that much of a process when it comes to, you know, from my perspective, I just sort of made the edits. But in Yeah, no, each card had its own sort of trajectory, if you will. Some definitely were just, they came out perfect, in a way. But, yeah, a lot of them just, sort of, they had a journey they had to go through, which is kind of funny in its own right. And

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  17:54  
we had our own journey with them too. Usually, usually, I mean, I think, I think, I think, trust you might have just done one, and then we were doing but I think in general, like, I would say we do like, three at a time that you would kind of sketch out after we usually have, like, an hour long conversation. And in all humility, like, I'm like, and graciousness, you would often, I go off on these crazy tangents sometimes, and I'm like, do you philosophies about something or, or something esoteric, or um, or even certain directives, like, okay, there's a new moon and such, something like coming, or like, you know, like you need to. Can you make it on this day, you know? And you're like, okay, okay, you know,

Branden Singletary  18:40  
I got to Okay, I understand.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  18:44  
But I really appreciated that, at least in terms of working together in relationship, how how open and receptive you were, and in just hearing me trying to, like, explain all these things that were going in my mind and and you would often take notes, you know, like certain words or certain things, or like, would sketch us something, and, and then, and then the next week, you're like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take an attempt. And then you would show me, like, the rough images. And then we would look at them, and then go over them. And then sometimes, if I was giving feedback on something, I'm like, oh, no, you know, like, No, it can't be like that. Or like, oh, you know this image we need to break. Remember, what was it? What What turned ended up turning into, I think three slash four images, depending upon how we

Branden Singletary  19:31  
want to count space. I think

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  19:34  
holding space, holding space, started off as, I think the image that I drew is literally just the hands, which is like, so funny, because, like, if anyone goes back into things that, like, I've done little videos on I did this little short on Tik Tok a year ago, at least from this time, where I was joking, like, is this holding space? And then the irony is that I ended up doing a drawing about having it be like this. But. Ah, but this, the physical act of this is not holding space, but, but the card like it, the original card had just like the hands, and then as you drew it, like, I'm like, Okay, you ended up we had a person inside and and then as and then there was also a sword that was coming towards the person, but the hands are blocking it. And and then, and then, at some point, I'm like, Oh no, I think we really need to have that person by themselves. And and then, and then, like, Yeah, but I don't want to lose the complete image, which was like, the hands plus the body plus the sword. But, like, but I think that's a protect or something like that. I don't even think I was using the word protect at the time. Yeah, that's hard. And I also had to flip the body in a different direction, because it was like, you know, fetal position going towards or away. And then, and then there was the sword elements, like, oh, at some point, like towards the end, like towards the later ones, something maybe that's worth noting for people is like there were a certain set of core images, plus were single words, for the most part, that had already been drawn, written on, on these index cards. I could probably I have them actually, right here, um, unless you find one that, like, actually looks like one of the things. This is not one of them. Like some of them, like, never actually in depth. Oh, here, I'll pick this one. This one isn't the best, but like this, one's allowed growth which ended up evolving into the growth card, which, which still has a vine. Try. But if you look at what, if you look at the growth card, it literally just has a spiral vine and it and it grows off on on both directions, which, which wasn't a part of the original image, but, but, like, it's something that you brought, but there were other elements, like, there's this other card, this one which isn't its own card in the deck. Allow growth and expansion, but, but contract and expand that ended up being captured in the growth card, right? So, like, and then there's even growth edge, which I think, I don't think there's much of a sense of an edge in that one, but, but there is this, it goes off the edge of the the card. And so, like, these are actually, like three different cards that end up combining into one single image, but with the primary image being growth.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  22:55  
What? What? What? What is there any? Is there any particular cards that you felt were more challenging to do, like, or more images or a combination of images.

Branden Singletary  23:06  
Yes, seven facets was really hard. I was stuck on that for like, weeks. It's like, how, how am I gonna fit seven figures in here? I don't know. But then I was like, Okay, well now, now that we're like, card

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  23:20  
now it's the Choose card. Yeah, at some point it was fastest. I can't remember what the original name of that card was. It didn't have an original and maybe it didn't, you know. But I'm like, I'm like, but like, Okay, we need one where they're inside the jewel. And then I'm like, it has to have at least seven, it has to have seven facets and and I'm like, okay, but we gotta get a sense, like they're in the show and they're having to choose. And because you went through a couple different, like, full iterations of that one, yeah,

Branden Singletary  23:53  
I think so it was, it was a rough one. I think that was the one that was the most challenging. All of the other ones weren't as as bad, no, because, like you ended

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  24:05  
up having the experience, we ended up having a choose experience. In the development of choose true, I guess one of the fun, like one of the things that you wouldn't necessarily know unless you were part of our journey together, like on the cover of the card deck, or what's planned to be the cover of card DECA like at the time of this recording, it hasn't been put in print yet, but the cover, the intended cover image with the shadow and the self kind of dancing in front of the theorists, the the dancing shadow and self were originally in that choose card. That was one of the early designs for those facets, which I think is also really kind of cool, that that is even part of the evolution, in some sense, we. The sort of end result choice, um, hidden. You can't see that. That's what ends up being picked. But, um, but it, but it. We did pick it, and it got put on the cover, and we literally pulled it out of that image. And then the image had to exist with having hints of that interaction, which you kind of see more at the top of the image, and then you see the the shadow mostly reflected in the base of that, that facet and, and, and I haven't checked the like, did we end up with seven facets? I should double check, but I think we must have.

Branden Singletary  25:37  
Maybe it was some, I was just trying to play with the geometry of the jewel or gem or crystal, and just sort of see where the forms, like, fall out of I don't know if there are seven figures in there, but there's,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  25:54  
I know. I'm just pulling it up. I think this is like, I'm like, is this the fan? Like, I'll show this. Like, it's gonna be hard to show it this way. This is like, maybe, well, we'll supplement it. So this is the growth one, holding it upside down, right? Yep, yeah. And then, and then, and then this. This is the, the the one that's choose. And I think that's, I think that's pretty close to, like the final one, if not the final one, yeah, yeah. And you can kind of see this, the self and shadow here at the top, and then the shadow here. And let's see, I'm going to take a quick look and count. It looks like, well, if you count the base facet, the one where they're looking into is a facet, 1234567, so, yeah, that's it's seven if you include the base facet, I think unless you think of some other ones as being suggestively too, or something like that, or parts, yeah, what was the easiest one to do? Wait, wait, no, you can't talk about the void and the threshold and the light ones for the record, like, you know, like, like this, like the ones that are like, a solid color, right? This is this one is light, which is kind of funny. It is framed. It is intended to be the but and void is all black. And threshold, and this, this is, I mean, it doesn't print very well, but and threshold is all gray, but, but give outside of those three where there's, you know, choosing the right shade, what was the easiest one to do? Easiest

Branden Singletary  27:24  
one? I mean, it would have to be one of the 20 more elemental cards. Yeah, maybe, I mean, just because you it was one of your favorites, fire might be one of the easier ones. You love fire.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  27:40  
You love fire. Here, this is this Friday. Yep, we have to show it in a better light. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Um, yeah, I mean, and honestly, because, like, I mean, like, even just like an elemental concept of fire, like, I mean, because everyone's seen a candle wick or a light wick like this, but it's just like, you get a real sense of aliveness, I would say, from all of your card, all of your images. But I really feel like it's like, given that the thing wasn't actually on fire, and that's just an image of the fire that that it had a sense of living fire. What would you credit? And I'm glad that the elemental ones would have been easier. I actually remember talking about rock, right? I'm good at doing rocks.

Branden Singletary  28:37  
I'm good at doing I draw rocks all the time. Yeah, I'm like,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  28:41  
Okay, I'm like, I'm at the point where I'm thinking, I'm totally crazy. Like, can you draw me to rock?

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  28:53  
Which note you This is wrong. Like, it almost has an asteroid like feature too, which I kind of like, that it has, like, suggestive of, like, it could be any kind of rock. It could be a meteorite, rock, but, but, but it is a rock. Well, that's the thing. And I guess that's it. Like, I mean, we're talking more about the evolution of the deck and the images for the deck. Like, we started with those core images with that were sketched that you've added, you know, like we're saying, like mine, were very paltry by comparison. They were suggestive of what I was thinking, feeling, receiving in relation to what I wanted to capture so that it was, it was almost like, you know, picture notes that you definitely built off of. And there were a lot of things that you added that, like Word, things I had said, that you just, you know, you brought forward in the in the card themselves, like, like, we had mask and we had unmask, which unmask ended up becoming a. Uh, emerge, emergence, emergence, which is this one here. But, and I may mention this one because, like, I don't think I told you to have one eye open and one eye sort of partially open, like this, and, and when you came back with this, I'm just like, Oh, my God, that's perfect, right? Because there's this sense of, like, when you're, you know, you get your awakening, or you, you gain clarity by looking at shadow and having that internal insight or transformation, and then you come out and emerge and like the eye, you can't really tell well in this image, but it's like, it's like an has this sort of, I think I remember giving some feedback, saying, like, I want it to look like, like that newborn, you know, eye image, but you'd already made a sort of slitty, in the sense of it being a an open, barely open, eye slit. And and then, and then, you, you, I don't think I had a hand. I think you added the hand to remember the look, but, but I don't recall that, um, and I thought, what, what made you choose to have the yourself, like, what you know, what, what brought that up for you in terms of the unmasking or the the emergence card,

Branden Singletary  31:17  
um, I admittedly cannot remember. I do recall that there was a hand we just had to change the angle of it. I Oh, maybe

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  31:26  
that's what maybe it was. I can, I can look how we can, we can. We can have these reflective moments, you know? I mean, although I think about other cards, like, like things that like we didn't, we don't have, like, a curiosity card, but there was this curious card, they kind of reminded me of, of this one, um, but like it, it wasn't something, because I know you got a lot more cards than we ended up, um, turning into cards. Oh, sure, yeah, um, but they all ended up, I would say, I'm, like, trying to dig in here to these, these cards, like, here's, here's a good one to maybe here's a good one. That may be a good comparison one there's, this is the reflective card, right? And this is some ways there are elements of this. Like, if you think about the the the one that had the like, what kind of thing, what it's called, we're talking about. We're calling it the facets card, but, um, choose, choose the Choose card. Um, there's elements of that, because there's elements of mirroring in there. Um, but when, but, but this was mostly captured in, in what was, what got turned into reflect, uh, reflection, I believe, um, which was the one in front of the waterfall. So, like, That element is still there. So like, in terms of it, as if it being reflective or Know thyself. I mean, know thyself shows up in some of the descriptions of some of the cards I know in one in particular I'm gonna have to go, go and look at the descriptions to see if that's the one I paired it with there. There was an element of learning my language, learning the symbols that I had kind of created, like and learning a bit about the ideas and concepts I was trying to create. And then, and then you translating that, but then definitely adding in your own imagery and your own language in combination, given, given your own work on trying to create your own, you know, worlds and language and metaphors. What was it like working with mine? I found it interesting. I've already paid you. Oh, wait, I found it now. Here's, here's the one. This is, this is the one that I was saying, like, it still has the reflective and knowing thyself, but it, but it ended up being quite different in some ways, but then some, the image was captured somewhere else.

Branden Singletary  33:57  
Yeah, it's, um, it was interesting because I'm not part like, it's like I have some slight attunement to, I guess, symbolic or esoteric language, and it's a realm I'm again, partially familiar with. I did dabble with Tarot a little bit, but not that much in and a whole bunch of other things similar to it, I suppose, just to be brief, but it was interesting because you were far more attuned to it than I possibly ever will be. And, yeah, and taking the concepts and moving into something that can be communicated through, through an image is, you know, creating imagery is something I often refer to as my primary language, just speaking in in images, yeah, it's, I don't know, the overall experience though it was, it was fascinating, because I, you know, whenever you did go off on your team. Changes. I was still learning things. It was, it was still educational to me. I was like, That's really interesting. It's just, like, just all of it is a very fascinating, uh, enterprise in its own right, yeah,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  35:13  
well, and I think it's worth mentioning, right? Like, because, like, even though there were the beginning images and like, and there are overlaps that happened in in learning each other's image language and and the concepts and what I was going for, and CO creating together as I got to appreciate, you know, how, how you language things in the similars and what and what you saw in the same words or the same ideas. But they were, they were coming through your your, your ways of conceptualizing them, but, but later on, right? We went from these, these more complex images and more complex themes, to what, what we call in sort of the elementals, right? It's like, okay. I'm like, Okay, I want to make sure we're talking about this like, I want to make sure we capture all the elements of each of the images. We've just made really complex into a simple language of the individual elements so that people can get the elements, which, again, wasn't originally part of the plan. Something that happened, I mean, I don't know. I mean, maybe it was like, I don't know, because, like, it very much was a, I mean, even for myself, it was very much a symbolic, you know, a working with the sort of unconscious, or collective unconscious, and using the images and working in relationship and where we're both trying to to capture these, these concepts and these images and these, I mean, experiences really, right, but, but how would you say like, like, the more complex images for you differed from the sort of simple language pieces, like, when we get to things Like, like, rock, which we can laugh at again, or fruit like, you know, little fruit, but like, but fruit like, we had Boone. I have a we had Boon before we had fruit. Then, like, Okay, if we have, if we have boon, then we need, we need leaf and we need fruit, right? But we, you know, we already had plans for, I think I don't know whether we had a plan for hand at that point, but hand ended up being an oak CC hands, right? But yeah, what would you say for you was when we started the beginning part of the project, versus like, as we had gotten through the complex images and we started getting to the elemental forms underneath them.

Branden Singletary  37:44  
Yeah, when we like that, it was an interesting turn. What immediately came to my mind was that the elemental ones could be used to, in a sense, hint at the creation of, you know, unique cards to fit specific situations that the intricate ones wouldn't necessarily be able to and, yeah, I was definitely up for that sort of concept, because, I guess, I guess Tarot cars don't necessarily have that ability.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  38:15  
Well, they don't. They don't tend to go, I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't say that. They go elemental. Um, elemental. Elements are there and represented in the images. Yeah, most of the images stay, I would say, for the most part, in complex form. And then not that they're reducing to these simple images, but trying to show, trying to basically help people take apart the images for themselves into elemental forms. Yeah, I mean, oh no. Well, we also talked about, like, some of our favorites images. And maybe, I don't know if your favorites have changed since, since the beginning, but what would you say today are your favorites? Like, you're like, your top three

Branden Singletary  39:08  
today? I mean, one that keeps coming back to me is Goddess. I still like ascend. And, yeah, the third one source, I would say source is pretty good. I like, yeah, that's like the

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  39:24  
third, number, 233, what was two? So if one

Branden Singletary  39:31  
was reflection?

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  39:35  
Oh, yeah, you're right, yeah, this is this reflection, yeah, and it's interesting. So we go from trust to reflection to source, right? And then, and you mentioned goddess. So, like I always, I've always loved goddess, the sort of Pandora's Box hinting at and then ascend. But what are we gonna say about ascend? Oh. Don't

Branden Singletary  40:00  
get to say anything that was or source

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  40:05  
source interrupted like this is like

Branden Singletary  40:09  
the thought proved, alas get happy.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  40:15  
So your top favorite ones would be ascend Source,

Branden Singletary  40:19  
Source, yep, this would be my favorite ones. I think I was just saying that I liked it in pretty much the moment it was made.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  40:30  
Oh, I love that. It's one of the

Branden Singletary  40:32  
fully formed ones, technically, yeah,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  40:36  
yeah, you know. And I know one thing I always said, and I'm like, on the like, there are, there are a few things I would keep saying. But one of them is like, like, Okay, this supposed to be like, like the high vibration experience, or like, the highest expression, or the or the experiencing this sort of like journey, but with kind of, like the the best outcome, right? Like the strongest experience, or the highest experience, of going through these experiences, right? So, like ascend ended up being really important in that respect, because that's, that's part of where you end, you know, for the new beginning, right, like you, you, you ascend, right, like you, you know, like you go from that, that trust, right with the hands and the crumbling mountain, you know, type of thing, to literally the, not only a strong sort of mountain that you've been able to climb, but you've literally, like, gotten to the full ascension experience and that element of consciousness. So I think there's, and I think there's even suggestions of that by being connected to to source. But, but, yeah, I think, I think sometimes, like the elements or the the words are, what the intentions are behind the cards. There really is an energy with each of the cards that that you've been really able to successfully bring across, like, in ways that I know I don't, I don't feel like we bring across in the same in the same way. Personally. What about other choices? Like, maybe you could talk a little bit about how you even draw the images and your the medium.

Branden Singletary  42:27  
So the images are made digitally, but they are hand drawn on that tablet. It's the main, I guess, esthetic that it that it took was me trying to find a way. Well, I guess this came before I even probably met Sandra here. But it's like I wanted to try and have the digital process of hand drawing the images be similar to how I make graphite error, charcoal images, traditionally. And I was like, I want to go about doing that. And, you know, I eventually figured it out. I puzzled without and that it makes it so that drawing is a little less annoying for me, because generally, I tend to get very irritated whenever I am drawing some because it just takes so long to get the like I have the image in my head. I just wanted to be on the page already. And, yeah, I just, you know, I made the process quick enough so that I don't get agitated by my own process. Because, yeah, but I also love the

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  43:31  
fact that, you it is hand drawn, right? Which is, like, it's kind of hard to explain, you know, like, they were always, these were always digital images, right? There. They were never, they were never physical images. They were always digitally created, but also they were always hand drawn, which, you know, I think, I think, and it does. And I really would say that these images really have the sort of hand drawn experience. And they definitely have, like, that edge of charcoal, especially when you look at like, you know, how you shade things. I mean, maybe this isn't the best example. Like, this is leaf, right? I could probably do it this way. This, this is the more upright position, and you get that sense of like I can You can almost see this is like a charcoal that, you know, that's on here, in terms of like, the or on reflect right, where you have that sense of gradient Gray, but the stark like you get the it might actually be thinking about Ansel Adams. I know it may be a lot to say Ansel Adams and really, but, you know, like, no pressure as an artist, but like, but like, but one of the things Ansel Adams said about, you know, capturing the spectrum of light, what he was part of, what he was aiming for, from what I understand, was, you know, trying to have the detail that showed up, things that were whether they were far away or close in focus. You got the whites looking white and the blacks looking black. And you had the detail. In both, right? So, like, you have the experience of of the detail in the in the white, and you have that, like, if I think it was like, I'm trying, it was like, this horse, one that he says was his best photograph, and partly was because of this detail he's able to get in that, in that horse from far away. But, like, but, but I think one of the beauties also the digital drawing over about how your art comes across, like you get that detail and that sense of depth in both the whites and the darks and the full spectrum of light. And I don't think it ever occurred to me personally, at least, that that not only that, you could get a sense of of a drawn piece of artwork from digital work in the way that your work does, but also that full spectrum of of light and dark and having the richness of the detail in both. So I just want to, I mean, I guess I'm just seeing this moment of praise and and iteration, like one of the things like, I appreciate about this particular project, and working with you on it, and given the subject of, like, you know, the shadow and the self and doing shadow work and that internal journey towards, you know, like, like, one card is like, the dark night of the soul, right, you know. And like, how do you get that sense of real dark? I mean, I can hold it up, but you're not going to see the detail in this one at all, especially with, like, my printer a little these are all little home prints, but, but like, Yeah, I mean, even in the lightness and the sharpness of the edges of the person, you get that sense of tenderness and vulnerability, and it really is just a simple drawing of of, you know, or even, I don't know whether you did you maybe that's a good curiosity question real quick, like, you know, did you draw this on a black and then add the white, or did you go the other way around? Was it a negative, or what?

Branden Singletary  47:02  
It was a white on black. Yeah, it was white on black.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  47:08  
So, and I think, and I'm like, That would be my guess, but it's like, I don't know, because, like, you can do negative shape painting and things like that. Like, in same thing in drawings. But what what? What other ones were? What did you get out of, you know, personally, out of going through, like, like, an experience of drawing, the different drawings and reflecting on, reflecting, right, like, how was your process in terms of, like, your own internal experience of the ideas or the concepts, integrating them as you drew them.

Branden Singletary  47:47  
Yeah. I mean, generally, it was a just a basic process of integration. Putting the images together was a matter of fitting pretty much your entire some descriptions were larger than others, I suppose, because those created certain cards created more, I guess, in a way, tangents, than others, I suppose. But all of the any sort of information that you gave me about any specific card, I tried to condense that as much as I can into one image. And that's taking all of the different elements that were possible, things that could be in the image, and filtering out which ones were the most relevant, or the ones that elicited the most excitement from your own descriptions, and those are the elements that stuck around the most. And, you know, reflecting on the cars individually, I don't know. I guess I never really did that. It's like I never really forced myself to interpret things, unless someone asks for my opinion on what the interpreted. I guess you're doing that now, technically, but it's like you said

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  48:51  
before, like you speak, you know, you've, you've had this experience of like your language, your more, you know, organic language is one of images. Sure. Yeah, right. And so if, if the image comes first and then the words in a different way, right, we're different. Was the experience of even conveying those images different, like you said when you send, for example, that like you you felt like you liked it right away, right? Um, is there any ones that you just didn't really like as much? I mean, you don't have to say you don't like it. I mean, like, like, you could say like, you know, I know we already talked about which ones were more challenging. I know one of the more involved cards was judgment that one, that one was a thing that went through a few iterations on that one too, I think so, yeah, let

Branden Singletary  49:53  
me see. I had something to say, and then it went, poof. It'll be back soon. Enough, but it's um,

Unknown Speaker  50:04  
the process of

Branden Singletary  50:08  
cards. It was unlo, yeah, well,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  50:11  
let's, let's pick an example. Like, like, what about roots? Like, I mean, I, obviously, I did sketch out some roots. When in the roots a, I think I have it right here. Okay, like, this is obviously my very, like, okay, very, not very roots, like, from my roots, roots. And I'm lean notes about ancestors, and so it's like, but I'm like, trying to get a sense, like, I want the sense of the connecting of the roots, but this is what you ended up drawing, right? And there's an element of, like, Okay, I'm just drawing, I'm drawing roots,

Branden Singletary  50:47  
yeah, um, when it came to the elemental cards, I tried to not get too, uh, abstract with it, it was like, very because an element is just an element. It's like, just, make the Don't, don't do anything crazy. Keep it simple. Just knock out the, just knock out the, the idealistic form of what this what this element is. And that's how they turned out, I suppose.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  51:17  
Well, what surprised you the most about the project overall? I know, I know at one point you're saying, like, there's no way I would have done this many.

Branden Singletary  51:24  
Oh, yeah, the number of times it's like, no. If it was my project, I would have, like, burnt out at like, 20. I would not know how to get 40 at all. And I probably wouldn't have mapped out however many cars I wanted to make. It's just like, I'm just gonna make a series, because that's not series, because that's what I did with, I guess, last year's series of works that I had made for myself. Well, I say last year, maybe that was almost two years ago. Anyway, I digress. It's like, yeah, I made maybe about 80. I wasn't planning on making 80. I wanted to make more, but I was like, I don't know how I can get more out of this, I'm just gonna stop. And, um, yeah. And that's how that would have gone. And, yeah, no, it, I guess the main thing that I'm surprised of was just the fact that, you know, just having such a great collaborative process was, uh, I guess that in itself, was eye opening. That's the main, my main takeaway from this entire project, collaboration isn't so bad, after all, because I usually just do things on my own.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  52:27  
Here we have our collaboration card. I appreciate you saying that, because like, I will say, like, I really, I mean, like, I absolutely, I know you've heard this from me before, but I absolutely, it was a real joy and delight. You know, working on all this with you, even when it was challenging and, like, there was some stuck parts for for both of us, or one of us, or, like, whatever, you know, you know, we laughed a lot. I definitely had lots of like, side quest conversations that, like, like, I don't know how this is gonna tie in, but like, I felt like, I need to explain this.

Branden Singletary  53:05  
Yeah, those, those are the moments I was looking forward to. I was like, I'm gonna learn something new, awesome.

Unknown Speaker  53:12  
I'm ready. Yeah?

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  53:14  
He didn't stop me. So I was like, yeah, it would Yeah, all sorts of things. I mean, like, like, like, I know, like, and then, and then odd requests, like, you know, like, like, like, I think this one was done at Equinox, at the Winter Equinox, Fall Equinox, I should say Fall Equinox. And and other things were like, I'm, like, okay, like, like, I like this one, like, Okay, I need you to have, like, it needs to be, it needs to seem like, a little bit shiny and a little bit more wet,

Unknown Speaker  53:50  
like, fresh, ready to be

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  53:52  
voluptuous, you know, like, like, a breast, but, like, with, like, it just, but it just needs To feel very, you know, fertile, abundant, you

Speaker 2  54:01  
know, like, not, not peach, but,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  54:12  
yeah, like, like, judgment. I'm like, okay, it could be, you know, sexual, suggestive, but like, you're not, you know, I gotta keep it in, I'm keeping it in the PJ realm. But like, we can know that that's what's happening.

Branden Singletary  54:26  
You don't have to scream that that's what's going on. Um,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  54:35  
What? What? What would you um, you know, what are you know, what are you looking right now, since we haven't printed the cards and like, and I have written the descriptions for them, but like, we're at this point now, we're like, you know, the images are done, the words are done, descriptions are done. Like, in like, the like, the next way, like, we're kind of like, almost like, clean up and like, other little pieces. What do you most look forward to? What is your hope? I guess. Maybe I should say someone, What's your intention, or your hope for the cards for yourself, or for someone who's like, picking up the deck for the first time.

Branden Singletary  55:10  
When it comes to my art nowadays, I just hope that they get something out of it, because I've more or less given up trying to, like, control what the experience of someone is it's like, that's not really, it's not really how it's supposed to go. And it's also really, really hard to do that. So I'm just like, just, I hope you get something out of it, whatever that is. If it's good, it's all you know, good. If it's bad, well, I hope you, hope you make your way out of that. I hope you recover from what, whatever bad experience you acquire from that sort of thing, it's like, yeah, I am at least, I try to remain at least somewhat conscious of what an image can do to someone. Because, you know, historically, my images have had the tendency to be very powerful, and I never really, you know, intend for them to be I'm just sort of making the image. And, you know, I just hope that whatever they, whatever an individual, gets from images, I hope it's primarily good, and if it's bad, I hope they, hope they find a way to overcome it. Maybe they become better in the process, by overcoming whatever bad thing

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  56:21  
happens. And all honestly, you know, in fairness to you, like, if there's a card that's challenging, like, like, if it's challenging to look at, like, repair, like it had rupture, rupture and repair were actually a part of a combination of this, right? But like, you'd see this is very destructive, right? Or, like, oh, this, like, you know, that's a little disturbing. Or you think about or maybe death or something like that. Maybe someone might be disturbed at, at literally facing death and the death card. I'm like, trying to find the image, but like, but like, that's not, that's not your I mean, not the quality of the art. It's the journey that the image or the experience is taking them on. I could show them the lovers, one sure, which still has death in it. There were, there's still death. Oh, here's still death. I mean, and actually still love that, like it almost suggested with him or her. Are they smiling? Yeah, true, but, but I I feel like, I think you're I think your images are really powerful, and I think each image can be a journey in and of itself, in and as much as you know, reflection is the the reflect card. I think, I think all of them inspire reflection, meditation, transformation in a supportive way. I just, I really do think, you know, regardless of what other people's experience of these cards are, I mean, working on these cards with you has certainly been a transformative experience for me, and I learned a lot about even my own unconscious, subconscious, collective unconscious, you know, processes by working through them with you and talking about them with you, and even seeing my own concepts visualized in different ways, and getting more depth and detail, but even having all the surprises along the way and the journey that this whole entire process has been it, I don't know what I would have. I don't even remember how I described it to you at the beginning. I don't know if you recall, um, I remember feeling a little hesitant to say, like, okay, so I'm working on these cards. Like, how much would it cost to do, like, a whole bunch of

Branden Singletary  58:46  
I was like, oh, man, that's kind

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  58:55  
but I'm just really grateful. Like, no matter what happens with the cards in real life for other people or or how many people end up using them or not using them, or what people receive out of them? I'm I know that I received a lot from this process, and that has been a real gift. And working with you as as an artist, Brendan, and getting to know you and your girlfriend, right? Um, and, and, and the richness of of what you bring forward and, and what you helped to co create with me. So I just wanted this opportunity to just thank you for for joining me on this, this journey to the point that we've gotten and what we've been able to co create together. Yes, neither of us a shadow or light, by the way. Like, it's, well, maybe we're a union of opposites, of sorts. But, like, but you, I interrupt you, you're saying something, yeah, no,

Branden Singletary  59:57  
it's, I'm glad that you. It took me on the journey. In a way, it's uh, as I said before, it was a eye opening. In many ways, it's um, yeah, I have not much more to say beyond that. It was, it was great. One

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:00:16  
thing I realized is I was going through and coming up with the different descriptions for each of these cards. I actually redrew some of them as I as part of my process for for coming up with the with the messages, with each of the cards, and and I realized, like, Oh, I could actually have people, you know, redraw some of them for themselves as a part of them connecting to that aspect of themselves, you know, because, like, you know, the the left brain, analytical word, part of our you know, is part of, like, that self construct the worlding sort of self versus like the speaking in images like you're saying earlier, and tapping into that unconscious, or in the collective unconscious, in these symbols and images that like, like, we all have an idea of fruit. It doesn't matter what you think that we mean by fruit, right? And I realized, well, maybe it'd be nice to have like, a journal that could actually have them, not just have space to write words of reflection or about each of the images as a part of their process, but also possibly redraw some of the images, because you use a different parts of the brain that may access ideas, concepts, symbols that would come up that you may not do just by, you know, Braining it literally, like, not thinking, like, what do you think this, you know, like, like, the Rorschach sort of scene, like, you see this, you see this moon card. It says moon or, like, this one doesn't have the words, but, like, you know, you see the moon. Like, you know, what does this bring up for you? You know, what is this? What is this? What do you associate with his own sliver, not a toenail, like, like, whatever you write,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:02:10  
right? But like, you know, like, but if you actually, you draw it like, there's a way that you connect into the images and the symbols that are that are really different, or the experience of it that's different if you were to revisit any of these images or or to or if you were to create a card that doesn't exist. You know, are there any thoughts of what, what it would be? You don't have to make a new card. Don't worry. Like no more. You feel complete like, do you feel complete from this project? Do you feel like we've said the main things that need to be said?

Branden Singletary  1:02:50  
I believe so. I do believe so. I don't think you know, I wouldn't. I definitely wouldn't add any more cards. Even hypothetically, I wouldn't add anymore, and I don't think I would change any of them either. I think they, um, they all have led to a kind of Gestalt that shouldn't really be disrupted at this point. Yeah, that's usually what I aim for, a good Gestalt that, um, operates on its own. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:03:21  
I think when we finally got, well, ther sisters, which wasn't again, it wasn't the deck, wasn't named before, and, and, and it came up for me after you completed all the the central images, and, and then you drew it, and we named it. And like, okay, that's like, I was literally like, this is the name. And like, Okay, you gotta, you know, draw the thing or whatever. Um, and that was the moment for me where I felt like the the sense of completion, and, uh huh, even though, like, there were still things to do, or like, there was still smoothing over of images, or like detail things. But I would, I would also say the same thing, like, I, I definitely feel a sense of completion. I can see there being different chapters or different things related. But I just love that, even though a lot of Tarot oracle cards are different multiple colors, because it's like about shadow and light and that journey and that relationship, that that would that's part of what came up with when the assist came out, was was realizing it was really about, you know, not just bringing them in relationship, you know, and full integration, but but really working together and uniting in this sort of dance. So and I appreciated the the the dance that we did in in creating, in this really creative process, I would definitely say creative and co creative process that I don't even think we had a projected date of when we thought we'd be done. We didn't have a deadline. There was no today. We did have a certain pacing that, you know, was done for, like the roughs, you know, and the refinement and. We basically met every Monday since about September, I would say,

Branden Singletary  1:05:06  
well, met in October, pretty much, since October, yeah, every Monday, pretty much,

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:05:13  
yeah. And this is for anyone new and simple, like, this is, like, officially, our last official Monday meeting and our closure. So this is, this is part of our integration and reflection of the experience. I know there'll be more, but, oh yeah, I'm just glad that you took the time with me to talk about the cards and our journey and our experience, and about your artistry and and are there any any final thoughts or things that you want to share.

Branden Singletary  1:05:45  
No, not, not at all. I

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:05:48  
am complete. I am complete and, and there'll be information on like how to reach out to you or contact you if you want to work with with Brandon as an artist. Couldn't recommend it more highly, of course, and, and hopefully there'll be other little, little products that will build a spin off that, if you just, like, really appreciate certain cards or other things like that, but, um, but thank you again. Brandon, I really enjoyed it and, and I think, I think you this project as well definitely has got me, me sold on, on the power of of creating with someone else in a unique way. You know, same, yeah, I think I'm more of a private artist that did the CO create in this way over a long period of time. I know you were the artist, but it's just a really beautiful, powerful thing and, and I think, I think it's, I think that's also in here too. Is, is the joy and experience that we had working together.

Branden Singletary  1:06:44  
Absolutely. Thank

Dr. Sandra Dreisbach  1:06:46  
you again, Vanden and thank you. Thank you for joining me on psychedelic source. If you found value in today's episode, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast and share with others in our community, and if you're a psychedelic practitioner, therapist or coach looking to identify blind spots in your practice or determine next steps for moving it forward, take the first step by visiting psychedelic Source podcast.com Until next time, remember, start Low, go slow and stay connected to your source, you.